Diva,rudder or no?

[Rob Eades]

As B&B project number two,I'm thinking of building a pair of Divas.I have no experience with sea kayaks.Does Diva need a rudder? Should I just go ahead and put one on anyway?

Also,I want these babies to be as light as possible so what is the thinnest okume I can use?

I'm thinking of building one each for me and my dad.He is 76,but hikes 25 miles a week and has just taken up mountain biking,so paddling should be a piece of cake

Rob

[Jim McLaren]

Bring up the topic of rudders on kayaks and you open a can of worms.  Everyone has an opinion on that.  So here's mine.

You don't need a rudder, especially on a single.  A rudder can help you track straight however it does not help you turn much.  I think it would just be added complication on a Diva.  

I would advise taking a day of training with a local outfitter or a local club.  Rent a kayak and see if you want a rudder.  My wife & I are going through that very process.  We're going out in some singles and will soon rent a double.  Once we've decided which we like best then I will build to suit that desire.

[Jim McLaren]

Rob,
I don't know where you are in SC but here in the midlands, Adventure Carolina (in Cayce) has some pretty good programs.  They do their touring training on Lake Murray.  I am sure you can find something similar near you.
Jim

[Rob Eades]

Iwas hoping to get that answer.

I'm about 30 minutes from Jocasee.I'm sure there are simular programs there

Rob

[Brent]

I don't have a Diva, but have built three cedar strip single kayaks with a very similar design.   These boats have carefully crafted bows and sterns that provide straight tracking.  I expect nothing less than a similar excellent design from B&B.

When paddling the boats move straight and true, and with the keel less bottom, turn easily.  However, (there is always a however) when not paddling these light weight agile boats have a tendency to yaw.  This is where a rudder might be nice.  Suppose you want to fish a bank in with a bit of crosswind.   The rudder (or a retractable skeg) will help to keep the boat aligned while you focus on the fish.  A retractable skeg is also nice when making long open water crossings - requiring less energy on steering allowing more focus on making speed.  But I seldom make big water crossings in my little kayak - I have a Core Sound for that!

[Designer]

The Diva tracks pretty well without a rudder. I eventually put one on to test her and I enjoyed having the ability to point the bow at a landmark and just paddle without any compensation and use the foot pedald to keep me on target.

A lot of purists shun rudders but I notice that the top Watertribe paddlers all use them. Carter Johnson who is probably the best distance paddler in the world changed rudder blades throughout the Everglades Challenge using a very small blade for flat water and a slightly larger blade for rough water.

[glasseye]

I am building a Diva with a rudder due to the very sloppy seas we have, that said on a nice day I can leave it folded up and not use it should I choose. I guess the point is that it's a nice thing to have available to drop i the water when you are getting tired at the end of a long day and the weather is starting to turn bad .... wishing you had one is not going to help.

[Jeff Horton]

Digging back I found this thread and have a question. What do you think of adding a retractable skeg on the Diva? I have been hoping to start one for a year now but I think I am finally getting close. I expect to start two this winter.

We will use our primarily as day boats will do some camping out of them. They will see everything from flat water and winding creeks to bigger waves and wind on a large lake. Might even see some open water once in while. So the more versatile the better.

I have always liked the skeg design shown on the CLC website. Always looked like a good idea to me and would be a lot simpler to install when building the boat.

[Steve Day]

I have been working with a rudder on the Diva 2 trying to get the pedals to work for my very long legs in a rather short cockpit. As originally installed, I could not get my feet on the pedals because I couldn't get my knees up through the deck. I have been working with pedal extensions to move the actual part that my foot rests on toward the forward bulkhead and center line of the cockpit. I finally have the configuration and now am working on strength to transmit the loads to the rudder system. With all that being said, the rudder has been working intermittently due to the current pedal configuration breaking  sometime during each paddle.

The Diva 2 tracks very well. She rides like she is on rails, but that makes her a little difficult to turn in narrow confines using paddles and no rudder. When the rudder is working and in the water, I am able to turn and point the boat very well with very few sweep paddles. When the rudder is not working or out of the water, I have to use a lot of sweep paddles to make turns. I like the rudder and am glad that I put it on the boat. Once I get the pedals configured correctly (my problem), I'm sure that I will paddle most of the time with the rudder out of the water and only put it in when I am turning and/or working across open water with a cross wind/current.

Personally, I believe the rudder is preferable to the skeg. I don't think the Diva/Diva 2 design needs to have a skeg, if my Diva 2 is any indication.

Having fun with the Diva 2,

Steve

[BradW]

The Diva 2 tracks very well. She rides like she is on rails, but that makes her a little difficult to turn in narrow confines using paddles and no rudder. When the rudder is working and in the water, I am able to turn and point the boat very well with very few sweep paddles. When the rudder is not working or out of the water, I have to use a lot of sweep paddles to make turns. I like the rudder and am glad that I put it on the boat.
Having fun with the Diva 2,

Steve

I haven't paddled a Diva and have spent more time in whitewater kayaks than sea kayaks, but I was surprised when I got in a sea kayak for the first time how much harder than a whitewater kayak (or canoe) it was to turn.  I found out, at least for the sea kayaks I was paddling, Neckys and such, that I could "carve" the turn much tighter by putting a fair bit of lean into the turn, like I would in whitewater.  Dig the chine in pretty deep.  A bit odd feeling, w/ so much more boat that I was used to, but it did work.  It might be a bit daunting for some folks to intentionally lean it as far over as I was taking it, but at the time I had a decent Eskimo roll, and I could also "prop" it up with the paddle pretty well, so I wasn't too worried.  Nowadays, well, it's been a while....

[Jim McLaren]

I haven't paddled a Diva and have spent more time in whitewater kayaks than sea kayaks, but I was surprised when I got in a sea kayak for the first time how much harder than a whitewater kayak (or canoe) it was to turn.  I found out, at least for the sea kayaks I was paddling, Neckys and such, that I could "carve" the turn much tighter by putting a fair bit of lean into the turn, like I would in whitewater.  Dig the chine in pretty deep. 

I've only been paddling a year so my experience is limited but I would agree with Brad.  If you lean the boat away from your turn it should turn much easier.  The problem with that is if your boat doesn't have good secondary stability (or you can't feel it) it's hard to find the right point to lean to.  I don't know how the Diva is in that regard.  I would think with those hard chines the secondary stability would be very noticeable.

I like the rudder and am glad that I put it on the boat. Once I get the pedals configured correctly (my problem), I'm sure that I will paddle most of the time with the rudder out of the water and only put it in when I am turning and/or working across open water with a cross wind/current.

I've never felt the need for a rudder until a recent paddle.  I borrowed a Current Designs with a rudder while traveling on a meandering river.  It was great having that rudder with all the twisting we did.  I've never felt the need for one in open water.  Even so, I would probably make provisions for a rudder on a Diva if/when I build one.  Contrary to my previous opinion.  We live and learn.

[Jeff Horton]

I have always heard white water guys say a Sea Kayak tracks like a train compared to what they are used too. And I imagine it seams that way.  For the way I plan to use on I have always thought a slightly loose boat, but not a white water loose with a skeg would be ideal I have yet to find one that seems to meet those requirements either. 

Hard tracking would be great out on the open water going from point A to B in a straight line.  But I plan a fair amount of small creeks and rivers where maneuverability would be preferable.  Then when you hit the big lake drop the skeg and away you go. The only boat that seems to meet that requirement is a Guillemot. But I  have not paddled one of those to see.

From what you guys are saying then the Diva isn't going to benefit from a skeg except in a few big wave, high wind situations sounds like. And it might take a rudder to really be happy on the creeks. Not what I wanted to hear I must say.

[Steve Day]

Kudzu,

You might want to talk to Graham about the tracking. He designed the Divas and might have a few thoughts on the situation.

Steve